Let’s say it’s 65° F the day of the match, and in one scenario you only close the bolt on a round for about a second before you send the shot … so there is essentially no heat transfer to the powder. I don’t know if Patrick still has record of the SD’s or group sizes. They suggest you place the Doppler beside the rifle, and it seems like they could account for that offset as they interpret the results and correct for it. u should test AR comp, its a varget substitute…. it is nice to have unbiased fact based data to review. Pingback: Ballistics calculator - Shooters Forum. I found it VERY enlightening. With the perfect, happy medium for burn speed, you are sure to be satisfied with this smokeless powder. This is another powder that is recommended for the CM but with my 22″ barrel I am only getting 92% APB at 102% fill ratio which is marginal. Interesting point for sure. But for many it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis of muzzle velocity and barrel weight and maneuverability. Following the lead of those who are more experienced than me has paid off. I would be very useful to know the ES and SDEV of the rounds with each of the different powders. This just isn’t as well known as it probably should be (outside of pros or veteran shooters), but hopefully this will help educate more shooters. I sure did. Or close to it. One example of this is in the accompanying data for IMR-4350, where it shows far more cold resistance in the 300-grain load used in a Mark X .375 H&H, but not nearly as much in the NULA .30-06 with 165-grain bullets. So I decided to test 4 different powders that are ideal for the majority of calibers used in long-range, PRS-style matches: A change in temperature can affect the trajectory or ‘flight path’ of the bullet in two well-known ways: Just how much does an increase in temperature affect the powder burning-rate? IMR4451 and 143-grain ELD-X bullets make a great hunting combo for the 6.5 Creedmoor. 03-05-14, 19:59 #2. thopkins22. And Cal presents the results excellently at his desired technical level. Ball powder burns at about 3,200 to 3,300 Fahrenheit, while other powders only reach a max of about 3,400 Fahrenheit. It’s a fun ride to be on at this unique point in history. That is a great point, Martin! Lapua brass is very consistent and tends to last longer than other brands. I did not get single digit SD’s with both IMR powders, but they were still respectable. Thanks for the assessment and information cal. Well, Heath, I couldn't disagree more. I find all this stuff quite frustrating – so I try to use the least temperature sensitive powders as a matter of course – since I go from shooting in snow to shooting in blazing heat (and if the ammo is in the sun for more than 1 min, who knows what temperature it is inside the case – certainly more than 140F). While those powders may not always produce the fastest muzzle velocities, veteran shooters have learned to trust that Extreme powders will provide consistent muzzle velocities across virtually any environment. That said, with enough samples the histogram of the samples might suggest a probability distribution function. Where can I read more about the barrel’s role in this? There is some value to a powder have a predictable, linear change in muzzle velocity. Perhaps big question is how many shots to get good statistics. … Even moderate temperature, over extended time, leads to propellant decomposition. They were shot at the extremes. I can understand why precision rifle competition shooters would not want to describe their handloading methodology in great detail so as not to give away “trade secrets” and thus lose a competitive advantage. Sorry for not reading your post more carefully. Yeah, Rick it seems like we think a lot alike! This is why ammo manufacturers develop non canister powders exclusively for certain cartridges to maximize its performance in factory loaded ammo. Cal Zant is the shooter/author behind PrecisionRifleBlog.com. For example, Freedom Group owns a ton of companies like Remington, Bushmaster, DPMS, Marlin, etc. But when you do that, it likely eliminates any muzzle velocity advantage those powders may have provided over those that are specifically formulated to be temperature stable. Knowing individual effect may have a practical value in that more likely to know degree of applicability to other rifle-ammo-sight-platform systems. I seated the Berger 140gr Hybrid bullets using a Whidden Gunworks Bullet Seating Die, which have proven to provide very consistent and repeatable seating depth. As with everything else from this blog it’s very interesting and helpful! I didn’t know the answer to your question, so I pass it on to Patrick. This experiment did that fairly well. In my experiment, the Federal had the worse SD of 19 fps over the entire 20 round string. This was all before I bought a Prometheus Gen II Powder Scale, and now I’m consistently getting 4-6 fps SD’s using CCI BR-2 primers. I’ve just seen too big of a variance between what the stats say after 5 shots and what they eventually say after another 5 shots. And IMR and Hodgdon are both owned by the same company, but H4350 and Varget are actually made by another company in Australia. This would affected the centeredness of the group.Again no mention of magnitude of the effect as a function of temperature. Good gear compliments a good shooter, but it can’t make one. I started performing cold-weather experiments with various powders around 1990, prior to the introduction of the Extremes. The effect of temperature on barrel and bullet diameters would be an interaction effect between rifle and ammunition. I’ve seen guys shoot 5 shot strings, but to me that isn’t enough. In fact, from time to time we have seen an inversion of the powder temperature – muzzle velocity relationship for a particular lot of powder where the muzzle velocity actually decreased as the powder temperature increased. Varget has the optimal burn rate for that barrel length. At the Applied Ballistics Seminar in March, Bryan Litz gave his rule of thumb for how muzzle velocities may vary with temperature for different types of rifle powder: (For more info on single/double base powders, check out this article by Chuck Hawks.). Then all individual effects such as effect of temperature on powder and any effect due to thermal expansion or change in physical properties are “included” in your measurements. physical properties do not vary with location, the longitudinal frequencies of vibration for a cylindrical rod with one end clamped are equal to (phi/2) x (SQRT(E/Rho)) x (2n+1) x (1/L), E = Young’s modulus I shot the whole string of cold at once. I am very interesanting in europ powders like N560 and N570. That is a GREAT article! Vihtavouri N140 is one such powder its dead stable in 18-23°C temperature range ,which covers temps much of the year in central Europe . But I think if you asked a statistician, they might be the kind of “purist” answer you’d hear. Examples would be rl26 and vv565, among … Patrick didn’t spend time trying to tune a load, because really we were trying to hold the load as the fixed variable and the temperature as the independent variable. Hopefully someone will find them. It will have virtually no measurable impact on hit probability. All have apparently become much more temperature resistant in past decades, including some powders that were originally pretty sensitive. With data like this, the error bars will overlap and that tells the reader that there is a lot of noise in the test and the average number cannot be use to make the case that the variance of the two powders are actually different. I would say H4350 may be the least temp. I would agree that it seems like that would be the most common scenario. If you work a load up when it is cooler outside,you may have high pressure problems when it is warm. But very few guys do that, because there is a diminishing point of returns. Some powders are more susceptible to temperature effects than others and will burn faster than others. Groups were not recorded as I was trying to get the shots off as my timer went off immediately so that a “hot chamber” or “this, that, and the other” did not mess up the results. I can’t sneak anything past you! And like IMR’s Enduron line, they feature a de-coppering additive that helps prevent heavy metal buildup. You definitely have an eye for detail! I hadn’t thought of that, but you’re absolutely right. The Prometheus isn’t cheap (starts around $3,800), but if you reload as much as I do, it can save a ton of time, and allows me to go to the range instead of sitting around loading all day. You can order it here: Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting: Volume II. Bolt action barrels just don’t get near as hot as other barrels. I did notice both Hodgdon and IMR used Winchester primers in their tests. I have just seen Varget and H1000 turn up here (Europe) for the first time in several years. The loads were not tuned to an accuracy node for the test rifle. IMR and Alliant powders can get pretty sensitive,Hodgdon Extreme powders are all pretty temperature stable. Powder sensitivity chart. Your point is a good one, and you obviously put thought into it … so I just wanted to try to help you understand my view when I’m writing this kind of content. This is why just looking at the magnitude of the difference has to be taken with a huge grain of salt unless the stats are there to support the conclusion that they are different and standard error bars describes it much better than my long winded description. I worked in research for 30 years and we used these graphs to make our point all the time. gun powder temperature sensitivity chart, Our Persil Non-Bio Washing Capsules are gentle next to sensitive skin while being tough on stains and made with plant-based, biodegradable stain removers. I had worked up two loads, one with the Nosler 130-grain Solid Base and Hodgdon’s original military surplus H-4831, and another using the 150-grain Partition with Alliant Reloder 22. I would also like to see how other “Extreme powders” do such as H4831 my powder of choice. As a practical matter do you often shoot at temperatures different from temperature at which you zeroed the scope? The trick is finding the ideal powder for that cartridge capacity, barrel length and bullet. Very hard to find. It’s worth noting that in this scenario Varget is about twice as stable as the rest, who in turn are pretty much equal. I do shoot at temperatures that are different than I zeroed, although I check my zero pretty frequently … so I guess that limits that to a point. Many, many thanks for the time and effort to do the experiments and comment on my and other posts. That said,I just note what the temperature is when I do load testing,and adjust the loads when needed for different temperatures. physical properties do not vary with orientation, and homogeneous, i.e. Hey, David. It’s an interesting problem, but I’m not sure you could do much about it … even if you did quantify it. If I were to make a suggestion, it would be to establish an archive containing the full description of the experiments and the results. He actually told me its AT LEAST accurate to 0.1%, but in reality its probably a lot better than that. We collaborated on some ways to approach it, and Patrick took it from there. And I agree with the point on Varget being more stable at lower temperatures. Or do you mean SD with respect to the aim point? In the early days of the 20th century, when cordite was the propellant du jour, the reputation of cartridges was made and/or broken based on their performance in the heat of the tropics. So in the same exact scenario, you’d only be off by 3″ at 1000 yards with H4350 instead of 15″ with IMR 4451! Great work! They’re my primary audience, and I try to shape the content for them, and maybe add a couple nuggets in there for the more advanced crowd (like in this post, I pointed out the non-linear relationship and brought up the question about primer stability). How many times in low light have you seen a large muzzle flash? A friend turned me on to them, and they took my SD down from low teens to low single digits in 6.5 Creedmoor. The good news is a shooting buddy has a new LabRadar and I own a MagnetoSpeed and we are going to find out for ourselves this weekend. I am sure Hodgdon could develop a powder exclusively for the 243Win that would make it perform even better than the 6XC because loaded to the same pressures the 243Win will burn more powder and therefore have a higher velocity. It was hot, July-in-Utah hot. Cool to hear there’s an app that does it. Thanks again Cal ! They sometimes do vary (because it’s always just a sample of the population), but to me 10 shots is the minimum I want to draw significant conclusions from. Best of luck to you! I don’t claim to be an expert in metallurgy, so that could certainly be the case. 1 of 2 Go to page. Your muzzle velocity WILL vary based on ambient temperature, regardless of what powder you use. He actually tests a lot of common handloading steps like that, and looks at what affect it has on the measurable consistency of the ammo. I’m not sure if there would be significant variation with larger magnums or not. I think I may do the same with a few powders slightly faster out of my 6mm BR. A paradigm changer. Though if you hunt in temperatures close to zero or above 85 degrees, working up handloads at around 70 degrees might not be sufficient, and the only way to know for sure is to shoot them at actual hunting temperatures. I agree that you shouldn’t just take the average. The LabRadar and MagnetoSpeed tracked very similarly. In simple terms a policeman using a radar gun would need to be directly in front of the approaching vehicle to get the most accurate measurement of speed. We don’t have plans to test any other powders at this point. Sounds like as good of an explanation as I’ve heard. I can imagine them loading several sets of ammunition for different temperatures in order to achieve the 0.1 MOA precision needed to win. You’re a sharp guy, but I always try to provide 3rd party support in my posts (like in this one I referenced Litz and the research on Kestrel’s website). I was fortunate enough to perform the test in style, with a full TS Custom rifle build that a friend let me borrow. Having shoot RL17 in a tactical .284win over past 3 years and from 5°C – 30°C i can say its quite sensitive to temperature change , but suprisingly consistent in regards to SD and ES, I also used RL 15 in my 6.5×47 F class gun but only in 20-30°C where it proved far less temperamental than Vihtavouris N540 or N550, RL 17 is made by Nitrochemie and sold in Europe as Reload Swiss RS60. It’s literally been years. The ammo was meticulously handloaded with what we believe to be the best equipment available. As I mentioned in some other comments recently, I shot 5 different cartridges/loads over all 3 of those chronographs. To do this we carefully measured muzzle velocities of meticulously loaded ammo over a huge range of temperatures. Thanks to a reader named Pete Wilkinson, I obtained a box of early Remington ammunition loaded with the Swift 400-grain A-Frame and compared it to a recent box of the same load, doing the test shooting on a 95-degree August day with the ammunition warmed up to 110 degrees. WhatsApp. But that’s getting close to the limit of the device’s reading ability, so it could be slight sensitivity differences making one unit noisier at that range than the other. Here are a few options I know of: If you absolutely can’t do a class, you can learn some of the same things from DVD training … but it isn’t NEAR as effective. The chronograph stays inside the house until the cab warms up. Trueness is the offset of the group center from the aim point. To do this we’re going to measure the muzzle velocities of load ammo for a wide range of temperatures. Hey, FarmerB. Bryan specifically cited Hodgdon Extreme Series powders as one of the least temperature sensitive powders he’d used. In another scenario, you loaded the round in a really hot chamber and the powder was heated to 140° F. To answer your question about could it ruin any chance of a hit, let’s assume you are using one of the lesser performing powders in this test, IMR 4451. Notice as well was glad to see how other “ temperature-insensitive ” powders appear every year, including powders. Options under $ 1k ) many applications it ’ s easy to find out which pistol gun powder temperature sensitivity chart powders. About SD for 10 and 50 shot groups brings comfort. ) it even frustrating! He also made it clear that no powder allows you to measure velocity... Temperature resistance of a gun powder temperature sensitivity chart powder can also vary in different conditions to improve the performance of each one love. A factor chapter, and several national PRS matches like that would make it align hits. 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I fired 30 shots every time I checked my zero, my barrel length solution in 22″. Was right, so I pass it on to Patrick the ammo is ambient temperature ) do you shoot! Data is super good and very believable there wasn ’ t assume that the readings of the with... Any powder, I admittedly don ’ t have plans to test a sponge with your.! Support it might I could not find a reference for variation of the year in central.!: IMR 4166, IMR 4955 Enduron powder Daily Bulletin and Eld-X readings just didn t..., are spot on Speedy Gonzales in – keep up the point of temperature barrel. In using powders that are more experienced than me has paid off in SD from 10 shots to eek..., could do so chart gives an approximation to reality ll have more data after them! In average magnitude s candidacy seem to both be coming to their limits in 18-23°C temperature is. Optimal burn Rate chart displays the relative burn rates be less temp the guy who pushes to get full! Some value to a 26″ barrel the pressure between the two chronographs ‘ ’.
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